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Tuesday, August 09, 2005

Biblical Inerrancy: New Testament Reliability III

Sorry.

The fact is that I am terminating this thread - for a couple of reasons.

First, I was underwhelmed by the external evidence - not by its volume, or its authenticity, or by its support, but by the "so what factor".

If someone makes it through the Uniqueness, construction and internal evidence and still refuses to acknowledge the reliability of the NT, the problem is not intellectual. It is willful disregard for the very same fact-based process used for any text.

You see, although LiberPaul stated that he used "my intellect and observations" the fact is that Christianity is a thinking, logical faith. It isn't blind, and doesn't require you to check your brain at the church door. The evidence is brutally compelling, and it is dismissal of it that requires abandonment of logic.

External evidence only makes a headline when it is contrary to the NT - and then disappears when that evidence is wrong. For example, "scholars" claimed that Moses could not have authored the Pentateuch because writing did not exist...then archaeologists discovered that there was writing before Moses. "Historians" claimed that the Hittites never existed...until archaeologists discovered indisputable evidence of the Hittites and their culture.

You see, once you have denied the uniqueness, superior construction and internal evidence of the NT, you don't care that hundreds of early writings confirm its accounts, or that the only argument against the historical reliability of the NT is the argument from silence - "well, it doesn't say that anywhere else, does it?" All you care about is that you don't believe.

Scholars, such as Pelty, have examined the NT in great detail in hermeneutics and exegesis, and have found things such as potential common sources between the gospels and difficult timelines to follow. It's neat stuff, and I am looking forward to my seminary classes that start next week - Intro to the NT, Elementary Greek, and Intro to Church History. What they have not found is proof that any of the NT is false.

If it isn't false, isn't it inerrant? I speak of the text, not the interpretation.

Feel free to comment on the ideas presented, and if you disagree, say why.

However, I ask one favor - do you have a reason beyond, "I think", "I can't imagine" or "I have trouble with"? In essence, do you have a reason beyond your own feelings about the subject you don't want to believe is true about God, man, sin, Jesus or faith?

Note: I recognize that I did not address the OT. The primary arguments for internal evidence are the same, plus the amazing level of detail used in Jewish manuscript copying before the printing press. Not one jot nor one tittle has disapeared, indeed.

12 Comments:

  • There's a problem with inerrancy, though. "If it isn't false, isn't it inerrant?" Well, it depends what you mean by "inerrant". The meaning commonly assigned to "inerrant" is not something that I can possibly subscribe to because it assigns magical value to the text and to the mind of the "Christian", in that somehow the "true" meaning becomes "clear" to the "true believer" with no possibility of error - disagreement being a sign of lack of faith.

    I suspect that, to take this further, we'll need to look very carefully at what "inerrant" might mean, and whether we might be better choosing a different word given the associations that "inerrant" has. There is a huge gap between "The Bible is true and reliable" and "The Bible in inerrant" as that word is commonly used. They are not simply synonymous.

    pax et bonum

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8/09/2005 06:12:00 PM  

  • liberpaul,
    I think the problem here is that you see Hammer as trying to show that the Bible is universally compelling as a document. However, Hammer's arguments only apply to those with faith in the divine inspiration of the text in the first place. Essentially, this is a debate internal to Christianity, about how the Bible should be understood. For an outsider, the furthest we can get is that the Bible is at least as reliable as any other ancient documents (actually, it's often much more reliable than many others, as Hammer shows), but we can't prove the Bible's "truth" merely by the exercise of logic.

    There is an application to everyone, of course, because Christianity makes certain historical claims about this Jesus chap. However, the "gospel" is much more than simple historical facts; it's far more about ourselves and our moral status, and about God and God's views on matters. So, the arguments here will have a bearing on apologetics. However, trying to persuade someone of the truth of Christianity by trying to show that the Bible is the inerrant word of God is futile, just as much as the efforts of the Scholastic theologians to prove God's existence by the exercise of logic.

    pax et bonum

    John

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8/10/2005 10:34:00 AM  

  • John,
    While we disagree on many things, there are few who I have encountered in blogdom that I am blessed by as much as you.

    I am ascribing "true and reliable" tomean "inerrant". It is the interpretation of some parts that cause dissension, destruction, and even growth - but battling about whether "turn the other cheek" means "be a pacifist in every way" or "never return insults or attack someone because of an insult" in no fashion diminish the truth of "turn the other cheek".

    LiberPaul, you never addressed my evidence. I'll update my initial post with the appropriate weblinks to the evidence. Then I'll make another comment with the first link.
    If you take the time to read it, you may be surprised as to what I wrote. What you address is, um, irrelevant to this discussion. If you have a subject you'd like me to post on and become a discussion, I am open to that!

    Cognitive Dissonance is the result of a difference in behavior and attitude. It is not a state that one can become comfortable with or "learn to deal with" - it must be elimnated by changing behavior or attitudes. I recommend using put-downs that you know what they mean, or at least ones that I do not have education in, and would thus be unaware of your misuse.

    Choose just one issue that you honestly want to discuss and use logic with. I'll go there with you.

    By Blogger Hammertime, at 8/10/2005 10:54:00 AM  

  • LiberPaul,
    Start Here.

    That is, if you want to look at the evidence. You can refuse, obviously, but it is your loss, not mine.

    By Blogger Hammertime, at 8/10/2005 11:02:00 AM  

  • Hammer,
    Thanks for that clarification! It sounds like we're not really that far apart, then. The problem with using "inerrant" is that the word is too often claimed by the extreme wing, who then say that, because the Bible is God's inerrant word, it must perforce be literally and factually correct on every matter that is even tangentially referred to within the text. Provided that we're squarely within "true and reliable" territory, you'll get little arguments from me on these matters. :-)

    Where we differ, of course, is in how we should understand the Bible in various places and how we should engage with the text. But those are secondary matters, if no less interesting and important for that!

    pax et bonum

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8/10/2005 11:42:00 AM  

  • liberpaul,
    As I said, these arguments aren't ever going to convince an atheist or other non-Christian of the reliability of the Bible. You're making the wrong arguments in the wrong place.

    Constantine was not the sole force who put the Bible together. The OT existed in its present form long before him - it was formalised by the Jews before Jesus was born. The NT was substantially agreed for a long time before the canon was formalised - the debate wasn't over its entirety but over a few books only.

    As for citing jesusneverexisted.com, I don't think you can hold that up as a paragon of logical thinking. I've visited it extensively in the past and it's hardly a paragon of rigourous logic or even an example of passable reasoning. It's merely a collection of polemics against Christianity, some of which are so misguided and ignorant as to be laughable.

    As I've said, we're talking here of how Christians approach their holy writings. It's got nothing to do with trying to "convert" anyone who isn't already a Christian.

    pax et bonum

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8/10/2005 03:57:00 PM  

  • Wow... at first when I read this, I thought it a good post, but really I had nothing to add by commenting. That is until I read liberpauls comment with the link. My faith is strong, so I took his little test and looked at the link. I will probably have nightmares tonight... that site is pure evil.
    My views on my faith are this (and the strange thing is ... just this morning I was telling someone else this same thing!)... I was speaking with a non-believer or marginal doubter, at best. I told them If I'm wrong, and you are right, then when I die, I will just go to sleep and no one loves a good nap more than me. However, what are you going to do if I am the one who's right. If I'm right, when I die, I will go to Heaven to be with my spiritual Father in a place so wonderful that I not even my dreams come close to discovering its beauty... and they will go to an everlasting Hell. Eternity is going to be there and be the same regardless of your beliefs. Just because you refuse to believe in something does not mean it is not true. Seeing isn't believing... believing is seeing, and each and every person will have sight at some point. Just for some, sight, and therefor belief, may come too late.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8/10/2005 08:02:00 PM  

  • LiberPaul,
    I didn't use dictionary.com. I have a masters' degree in Psychology.

    I missed the contradiction. Do you know of any who would abandon the obvious answer that Christ's power was of God and substitute a power of the devil instead, who are believers? Anyone who would abandon logic in such a fashion, as the Pharisees in the passage did, to cling to their illusions has chosen their fate.

    Genesis 2 is not a timeline. you have to make assumptions to make it so.

    I see you have failed to choose a subject to discuss. Feel free to give us one at any time.

    SAH, thanks for your input. Unfortunately, the warnings of Hell are few and far between in this day and age. Not only is there no Jonathan Edwards, there are few who would dare quote him - at least on that subject! The abandonment of the discussion of hell by churches has weakened the impact of the position, unfortunately.

    Sinner in the Hands of an Angry God is a chilling read - and a chilling verbal message. It is, nonetheless, frighteningly logical.

    By Blogger Hammertime, at 8/11/2005 11:03:00 AM  

  • Since you only make one argument, LP, I'll address it: Mary was of the house and lineage of David as well. Matthew's geneology leads to her, not Joseph. Joseph was the son of Jacob, not Heli (or Eli). Heli was Mary's father. Did you really think that the Gospel writers couldn't manage to get that right, during the lifetimes of the immediate family members of the principals?

    The argument from silence is an illogical fallacy that I already addressed.

    I am amused that you simultaneously argue that the NT is a big contrived conspiracy yet then insist on all these "contradictions" that you are able to find. Both cannot be true, unless you are of an intellect beyond all men that lived. Choosing to say that archaelogocial finds that back up NT history are not evidence of accuracy belies that possiblity.

    I'll make a post just for you...

    By Blogger Hammertime, at 8/11/2005 01:16:00 PM  

  • Hammer,
    "Not only is there no Jonathan Edwards, there are few who would dare quote him"

    Which I regard as a good thing :-)

    IMO, Edwards was a poor theologian with a seriously flawed picture of God. He had some right ideas, but elevated them beyond their rightful places - God can be angry, but anger doesn't define God's actions; God does not delight in the punishment of sinners; man is not capable of infinite actions or infinite offences, and so no infinite punishment is required.

    By all accounts, Edwards was a very good preacher and instrumental in starting a revival in faith and practice in his area. However, I think his thoughts were more accurate when he was pondering the nature of that revival than the nature of God.

    But this is really a matter for a different place :-)

    pax et bonum

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8/11/2005 03:55:00 PM  

  • "Narrow World view"??? You ASSUME that b/c I believe in God and speak WITH Him... Notice, I did not say TO Him.. daily that I have a narrow world view. Son, let me tell you something about me since it is painfully obvious that you know NOTHING about me.
    I have been all across this great country and to several others. I have seen things that would make a grown man cry, vomit or both. I have given birth and planned my child's funeral, which ONLY through the Grace of GOD ALMIGHTY was I able to cancel. I have had times in my life when I felt deserted by God, only to realize that I was the one who had left. I have also had times in my life when the only moments I felt at peace was when I was praying in a Chapel at God's alter.
    Please, don't think to tell me that my view is narrow when you are the one that is obviously not open to any possiblity other than what you percieve to be true. At least I was open minded enough to look, however briefly, at the site that you posted.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8/11/2005 11:18:00 PM  

  • LiberPaul, et al.

    You've brought up some very interesting points that challenge a Christians understanding of the veracity of the Bible. Personally, I do believe in the Bible as God's word and as a way to get to know God. But, there are many things it says that cause a problem for many believers. I'd like to look at one you've brought up.

    Christian's claim that the Bible is the inerrant word of God and yet we don't follow every part of the law. I think we often claim it to be God's law, but forget that it is just as much (or perhaps more so) a book about God's relationship to mankind and His search for relationship with mankind. The mention of many laws from Leviticus comes up frequently. But people miss that God's prophets never condemned His people for moldy walls, but for whitewashed walls and empty hearts. Is my life like that? Too often. But the Bible condemns that more than individual laws.

    Perhaps this should be more of a call to believers, like myself, who have too often claimed that the Bible is always right without really understanding the Bible. Are all the laws timeless? Are the prophesies all valid? How do we explain the creation story in light of Gen 1/2/3 which show different things, or in light of the scientific evidence we currently have? All hard challenges.

    All of which make me re-valuate my understanding of the Bible. Is it literal? Always (like the law)? Is it perhaps a story (creation)? Always? Could it be a mix of the two? Could there be different genres that make it hard to understand? Could this reflect that God is more complex than I can understand - sometimes timeless, sometimes enjoying parables, sometimes giving confusing replies, sometimes hiding, sometimes all-present?

    I know, more questions than answers or replies. I appreciate you taking the time to read them. I look forward to any comment.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8/15/2005 01:57:00 PM  

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